Voiceover:
Welcome to the Raw Nerve, the official podcast of MS Australia, a conversation space for all things multiple sclerosis. Join us for news and views on the latest research, treatments, and advocacy efforts, as well as candid and informative interviews with our community, those living with MS and their families and carers together with leading clinicians, researchers, and advocates.
Jeremy Henderson:
Hi, I’m your host, Jeremy Henderson. Today we’ve taken the Raw Nerve on the road. We are in Kew, a suburb of Melbourne, and we’re here to catch up with chef and Melbourne restaurateur, Joe Vargetto. I’ll be chatting to Joe about his career, his passion for all things culinary and his love of cycling, and I’ll be speaking to Joe about his extraordinary MS diagnosis. Joe, lovely to meet you in person.
Joe Vargetto:
Thanks very much.
Jeremy Henderson:
Yeah, great to be here at your restaurant, so we might actually start there. I’m really, really keen to know about your-
Joe Vargetto:
My journey.
Jeremy Henderson:
Your journey, yeah.
Joe Vargetto:
It’s an interesting one I think. So, well, thank you very much for taking the time out and interviewing me and obviously, you’re going to be asking me a lot of questions on my journey, how it happened. And to be honest with you, I don’t really understand how it happened, but one day you get the diagnosis.
It worked out that around, I think 2010, 2011, 2012, I possibly had some indications or attacks. The top lip was a bit numb, and hand was a little bit numb and tingly, but I thought because of chopping vegetables and pan work and all the rest, that’s how it came about. But I never thought that I’d be diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, never in a million years. I’m an avid cyclist and back in, let’s say fourteen odd years ago, I was on the bike quite often. I’d be doing a lot of kilometers, very fit and lean and all the rest.
And one day when we had our first (AFL) Premiership public holiday 2015, that Friday, I decided to ride down to the coast going towards Portsea and the car just came out of nowhere and just smashed into me. I was lucky that it could have been much worse, but it could have been that he didn’t hit me as well. But the thing was I landed into the car, when he smashed me, I landed into the car shoulder, all ribs broken here at the back, nicks, sore.
Anyway, the ambulance and police and so on found me on the ground and there was lovely people around that obviously saw the accident. And by chance, a trauma nurse was in one of the cars and she ran out. Just before I blacked out, I was trying to get up off the… Anyway, she put me down and held me down and said, “Don’t move your neck.” And so on.
They took me to the Frankson Hospital, and they obviously did their tests and so on, and they found some shadowing in my neck. They thought it was a little strange, so they kept me much longer than it was expected. And obviously, with the impact and the broken back ribs, there was only a certain much they could do.
And then when I was released, they asked me to go see my specialist and doctor and they put me on a program to try to work out what this was. The thing was the lesions that I have in my brain, there are some, and I first asked if I do have a brain first, but the doctor confirmed that. And so, the lesions are kind of normal, but the shadowing was a little bit suspect.
So, drilling down, drilling down after a few months, obviously, my specialist there at the Melbourne Private said that you probably have multiple sclerosis. I thought, nah, come on, infamous what if. Silly. It’s just nonsense. It’s absolute crazy talk. And it took me a bit to wanting to understand it because I didn’t have any other real symptoms.
And then after a few years, I think the impact and the disease start to play its role. And now I think I’m pretty much aware that I do have it. And the other thing as well is that the ironic part of it all, I think I was hit by a car early enough to find out. So, my specialist there said, with not real testing, but an analysis, it probably came about around 2011 and you were probably living with it for about four years in its prevalence.
So, there’s probably about four-year area where you’re living with no treatment. So, some people don’t even know they have it for a long time and the symptoms and what happens to their body does get much worse before they get… What’s the word? Do get treatment and do try to keep it at a level where they can manage it. If it does go too far the other way, obviously, your nerves and your myelin and all the rest are so damaged that you can’t really bring anything back.
Jeremy Henderson:
So coming back to the accident, so I can’t imagine at the time with broken ribs, you were thinking you’re so lucky to be hit by a car and it’s quite extraordinary. But now looking back on it, as you’ve just said-
Joe Vargetto:
It’s crazy.
Jeremy Henderson:
You were very, very fortunate to be, in some ways, be diagnosed as a result of that accident.
Joe Vargetto:
I don’t know, maybe it’s a Sicilian brain that I have sometimes or out of something nasty or out of something that could have put you in a grave has come that something positive. So yeah, that’s how I was diagnosed. I didn’t go to the doctor.
Because being a chef for so long, your legs start to… Because of wear and tear and your hand and your shoulders start to have some soreness. So, I would never thought that I would have multiple sclerosis.
Jeremy Henderson:
But after that diagnosis, and then looking back at those little niggles, those signs, you recognise that they quite… Could well have been-
Joe Vargetto:
Like now, my lip, it’s there but it’s numb. So sometimes I go like that to see if it’s still there.
Jeremy Henderson:
I think you may be aware that World MS Day coming up on the 30th of May and this year and next year as well, the theme is ‘Diagnosis’ and it’s an opportunity to share people living with MS, to talk to them about their diagnosis journeys. It’s also, I think, an opportunity to, obviously, the diagnosis piece is critical.
And I think you spoke briefly about it there, that more we can do to increase people’s awareness and understanding of what MS is. And of course, MS doesn’t present itself the same way across any two people. And so, for people who have an understanding of the variety of symptoms and the way it may present, and not only the general public, but also GPs and health professionals, that can go some way to making sure people get diagnosed as early as possible.
I imagine that that idea of early diagnosis is something that you are quite passionate about personally, but also wanting to see that people get diagnosed as early as possible. So, in terms of that awareness piece, there’s only so much people can do but there’s a lesson maybe for people being their own advocate when it comes to going to a GP, whether it’s MS or any other condition, and being able to speak accurately and advocate for themselves when they go to the GP. Because really, when you’re talking to your GP, they take so much from what you give them or what you tell them. What are your thoughts on that?
Joe Vargetto:
Absolutely, and I consider one of these things that, for example, breast cancer, we have a slogan, get yourself tested early. I think that also can be presented to a whole heap of different illnesses that obviously, we can have. So, I think there could be a boom gate time, like at 25, have analysis for possibly one or two or three or four different illnesses or multiple sclerosis, 25, 30, 35.
Obviously, the disease is more prevalent in females, it’s more prevalent as you get further away from the equator. So, Melbourne being cold, not much sun. And the other one as well is that when I was first diagnosed, you look at my heart rate, all of my vital signs as the doctor said, “You could be an Olympic swimmer, but Joe, your vitamin D is not just on zero, it’s just way down there.”
Now there’s possibly no correlation between the disease or there could be a correlation between the disease, but that could show one thing, if that vitamin is so low, it could be a chance to maybe go and get tested. It’s something. It is probably not medically ticked, but there’s something that we could say, okay, let’s go and get tested at 25, 30 and see, because one of these…
It’s not going to bring you back to your normal, but if you do get diagnosed early enough, it could just keep you where you are. It just stabilises you and the people that I know that have been diagnosed and have been caught early are okay. There are some that I know that are literally being diagnosed and five years down the track, they’re bedridden that you wouldn’t expect that from how they were or how they are now.
Jeremy Henderson:
To move you away from your MS for a while, so we’re here at your restaurant, Mister Bianco, so I wonder if we can, and maybe not start here, maybe go back to the beginning. I wonder if you could talk to me about your passion for all things culinary. Where did that come from, Joe?
Joe Vargetto:
I think it was a subconscious thing with my parents. As much as they were very, very hardworking. I grew up in Bayside and everything was about food. Obviously, my mum wanted me to be someone that was a lawyer or a doctor or so. And so, I got into commerce at university and a year and a bit into it, I was bored.
So, one day I had this crazy idea. I said I was going to defer my degree and I was going to go and work in a kitchen. I wanted to go and work in a kitchen. Back in the day, it was 1994 when I started, and I started at Florentino upstairs. And anyway, I did some kitchen hand work and so on. And the chef there, whose name is Mark Haynes, he said, “Well, you’re probably a little bit… Maybe you should start cooking.”
I said, “But what? Cooking? What do you mean cooking?” He said, “Well, we’ll indenture you, we’ll get you on an apprenticeship.” And I loved it so much and I did my apprenticeship in three years. And he said, “After you finish your apprenticeship, the best thing for you to do is get on a plane and go.”
But again, I used to cook with Mum always, I would peel potatoes as a young kid. I was never really outside. We’d make all the sauces, salamis, we’d do pasta, everything was done by hand. And the greatest thing I think was I would always watch Mum and she would always have a battery of different foods that she was cooking, like chicken stocks or cotolette or sauces or all elements to…
Because she was working as well, she would just come home, take things out of the freezer where there’d be sauces and so on, and create this beautiful meal every night. It was never ever bought. There was never take away, there was never delivery food or anything like that. So, I finished my apprenticeship, I took a plane, I really didn’t know where I was going. I just had a couple of magazines that I went to the Hill of Content next to Florentino and there were some European magazines.
And I saw on the front page a gentleman by the name of Gualtiero Marchesi in Italy, and they called him the godfather of Italian food. I landed in Italy; I worked in Bologna for a little bit. I got my feet, and then I took the trek to Erbusco, which he moved his restaurant from Milano to Erbusco, which is a part of the Bella Vista area.
And I just walked in on a Monday and I really didn’t know what I was doing. And I met the head chef and he said, “Okay, we don’t have a position here at the moment, but you come in two or three weeks.” And I did. Just with a couple of suitcases with no real money and they gave me a lodging room and I was there for two years.
And that’s either the love of food, the love of locality, the love of… That’s how it all really… I put things together, the love of meeting your artisan producer. And that’s how it started. It doesn’t start with the chef, it just starts with people that can produce some beautiful things and we just add some seasoning, grill it gently and serve it.
Jeremy Henderson:
You mentioned at uni you were studying commerce. Were your parents supportive of that change of heart?
Joe Vargetto:
Absolutely. Loved it. No, no, no. But then when I got home one day and I said to Mum I was going to become maybe a cook or work in a kitchen, she didn’t speak to me for a long time. It was like day and night until one day she said, “Whatever you do, make sure you’re the best.”
Jeremy Henderson:
And what was the turning point for your Mum, do you think? At what point did she come on board?
Joe Vargetto:
Well, at Box Hill TAFE, because I went to Box Hill TAFE, I’d win a lot of competitions and things. I had dux of class and she just thought, well, you’ve got to be good at things that you love. And I just found the passion. And even to this day, I don’t find it work. I just find that every day is a challenge. What’s going to happen today? How interesting is it going to be? What’s going to be the good about it?
There’s going to be hard work, it’s going to be hard. There’s going to be things that you disagree with and so on. But I think that if you… The word love gets used a lot, but if you really like what you do, you don’t find it work. Everything is part of the journey. Meeting new people, eating beautiful food, creating dishes that are memorable.
And I think one of the things is that you enjoy when people are smiling. We get many good reviews here and great reviews, but sometimes we get a bad one and it really hurts. But pick yourself up and read it and okay, what’s wrong? All right. And I think I’m one of these people that might have a pile of great reviews, but there’s one and you just dwell on it. Why did it happen?
Jeremy Henderson:
So, I think traditionally, people think of restaurant business as being a fairly stressful environment and as they work in that kitchen, chefs shouting at each other, perceived to be by people outside like me as a really stressful work environment. Stress obviously not good for anyone. And particularly, I imagine for people living with MS. Heat and stress-
Jeremy Henderson:
So, heat and stress, you’re in a kitchen, my own exposure to a kitchen is watching The Bear on Disney. Is it like that?
Joe Vargetto:
Now. With, I think, hospitality, people don’t realise that when you walk in the door, everything is now, you are in now. So, a good friend of mine explained it to me that he’s a CEO of a, let’s say a large company and goes, “Joe, I could not do what you do because we need to have sit down meetings and we’ll discuss this and we’ll talk about that and what’s coming up.”
We don’t have the luxury of weeks and huge budgets and discussion points and meetings with your team to get an outcome. When you come through the door, you’ve just got now. Now. Gentleman at the door jacket, now. Needs a drink now. It’s all now. So, then you’ve got a brigade of team, for example, your salads coming from this side, you’ve got your hot side dish coming from that side. You’ve got your meat, your fish and your, let’s say, pasta dishes.
So, it all has to be coordinated. So, it’s not the fact of it is stressful, it needs to be organised and I always say, it’s not about being point now now now, I love you, but we need it now. And that’s the thing in hospitality. So, stress, as my doctor said, “Joe, you got to get away from stress because it creates heat in your body and your neurons and so on, and your nerves flare up and so on and you get attacks and heat is no good.”
So I go, “Well, I’m effed, aren’t I?” So again, but then those elements are probably not right, but if you have things that you’re satisfied with and you’re happy with and your total body and your mind and so on is creative and you’re happy with and satisfied with what you’re doing, it butts the other one out, I think.
Jeremy Henderson:
And in the kitchen, are there things that you have done or adaptations you have made or even in terms of the people you hire, or you choose to work with, things you’ve put in place to try and make the kitchen as less a stressful environment as it can be or as it is what it is?
Joe Vargetto:
No, I don’t want to go back in the good old days and whatever else, but it’s far, far, far from how I started or when I saw overseas in three-star Michelin restaurants and so on. It was hard.
Jeremy Henderson:
Can you give me an example of what that used to look like?
Joe Vargetto:
There’s many examples. Many examples. And the funny thing was is that let’s say overseas we had sometimes up to 30 staff in the kitchen to do maybe 40 covers and it was cutthroat timings. So, the fish needs to, for example, be raw as it comes out of the pan and as it comes onto the plate, and you garnish it and send it out. As the timer gets to the table, needs to be cooked. So, it’s all about timings.
The less stress in the kitchen now I think comes through technology as well. And a lot of these, for example, thermomixers and inductions and all these things, I’ve got timers and a lot of it as well is just on, we can set a time and say, okay, the tortellini are going to take four minutes to cook, start to plate and everyone works in good rhythm.
So sometimes you don’t even talk throughout the whole service. But sometimes things happen that, for example, your perception of a medium rare to my perception of a medium rare could be slightly different. So maybe we’ve cooked it in your perception a little under, so the steak may come back that we have to fix up. So, then it throws everything a little bit out. Guests may be coming in late; they may have come in a little earlier.
I don’t think the kitchens are no longer that big kind of beast of it maybe was before. It’s now are much more calmer. But numbers are, for example, with 30 people in the kitchen to do 40 covers, let’s say 40 people in the dining room. Now we’ve got maybe eight in the kitchen to do 150. So, you use different methods and means to make sure that everyone is satisfied.
Jeremy Henderson:
So how does Joe relax and unwind? So, we’re taking up your day. The restaurant is closed today-
Joe Vargetto:
By doing podcasts. I love things.
Jeremy Henderson:
What would you normally do to unwind?
Joe Vargetto:
On my day off, I would sit in the office at home and just either revise a few things, put things into practice. I think I’m a person of, I need results. So, if I’ve got something in the back of my head or something’s not right, I can’t take a holiday.
If it’s not right, I don’t believe that I need a day off. It just needs to be fixed or it needs to be adjusted or we need to get onto these things. I don’t ask it from my staff, but I ask it from myself and that’s how I’ve been. I don’t find cooking a chore.
Or back in the day when I used to have a day off, for example, from when I was an apprentice or commie or chef de partie or more so on, I’d do things at home. I tried to learn how to perfect puff pastry or learn how to make a salt crust or make consommés at home and my mom would go, “My God, can you just… So much washing all the time.”
Jeremy Henderson:
Talk to me about this, your new restaurant, Mister Bianco, so clearly a labour of love. Tell me a little bit about it.
Joe Vargetto:
Mister Bianco?
Jeremy Henderson:
Yes.
Joe Vargetto:
So, we were up the road up the hill and that was 45, 50-seater downstairs, plus 30 upstairs in a cooking school at the back, it was just time to move in the sense of we were just always saying for example, no we’re fully booked or no, no, no.
So it got to the point where I thought times are changing and I think that food needs to be good, service needs to be good, but there’s also another element that we need to invest in hospitality, which is entertainment and places where you want to be and be convivial and needs to be a place where you want to come and have a drink.
So, I decided to move lots of it down. And where we are at the moment, this is like the designers, they created a little memory of Mister Bianco, so this is what we call it Table 20, and there was a table 20. It’s exactly the same as how it was up there. So, this is a little homage to up the road and it’s the only part that’s the same. Everything else is different.
And I think just times are changing and I think people want to have really tasty food, but they don’t want to have the laborious terminologies and they want to eat well. We’ve got a beautiful bar next door here, which is our cocktail bar called Bianchetto. So, you can finish your meal or start…to have a drink. So, it’s multifaceted and there’s also a function space upstairs that can fit about a hundred people.
So, it’s really having three places in one, but it is a labour of love. My youngest son works here some days. My eldest son works upstairs to do functions. They’re both at school and both at university. My wife, Daniella, works and does all lot of the HR and the books and things like that, so I don’t have to worry about that stuff. So yeah, there’s a lot of time that we invest here.
Jeremy Henderson:
So, we are lucky enough to talk to many Australians living with MS and many of them it’s about focusing on what they can do and not on what they can’t. And often it’s ordinary Australians just simply living their best lives and some of them doing extraordinary things.
In terms of your MS now, how does it present and impact on your everyday life and also how does it impact on you in working in the restaurant and in the kitchen?
Joe Vargetto:
I think that’s a really, really good question. When it was first diagnosed, I thought it’s a lot of… It’s going to happen to me. It’s a lot of trash. And then as I think time is always the biggest winner, it’s a bit like water on a stone. Stone, water, and then all of a sudden, the stone gets eroded.
Time is the same thing. You can never beat time. Time is you can go with a tank with time and try to kilt, but you’re never going to beat it. So, 14 odd years ago did I think I was going to get to this point as I am. Yeah, I look kind of upwardly mobile, but as I obviously said to my doctor a couple of times, it just feels like there’s this black cloud.
And I see my walking, obviously it didn’t help when I got hit by a car, but my walking on my right leg, if that’s my feet, this foot wants to bend down and when you walk, you look at my shoes now, it’s always rubbing at the front and they’re just simple hints or reminders that it’s always there.
You wake up in the morning and some days it’s fine, you walk better and then some days you’re just tired, you get a little bit fatigued early, and you walk a bit strangely and people ask you, “Are you okay?” And I don’t want sympathy, it’s just what happens. I think you just got to deal with that.
But it is, for me, in a serious way, it’s just that black cloud that’s always there. You try to make it sunny over here and then you turn around and say it’s there again, isn’t it? So, it’s always there and you go, okay, as it could stay like this, it could get possibly could get better. Maybe this attack is just going to finish and never come back again.
But I don’t know, it could get worse. I don’t see myself asking for help or asking, but it’s just always there. So, I think that’s the downside of a lot of those things. And my fitness has obviously dropped off a little bit because now, as I pedal, if you look at my left leg, my calf or my left leg is large and my right leg obviously because the pushing is less. Obviously, they look the same one as your legs, but this skin here looks a bit thinner.
Jeremy Henderson:
How long did it take you to get back on the bike after being hit by the car?
Joe Vargetto:
I think maybe I’m just stupid because I asked my doctor if I’ve got a brain or not. And I think after I got back onto the bike, but I didn’t go with groups, and I just rode by myself …probably a week or two.
Jeremy Henderson:
We know that exercise and eating well are really, really important. And many people living with MS are very passionate about both of those aspects because it’s things that they can control and take back some agency. You’re a chef, obviously you’ve got the eating well bit down pat, I imagine. But I wonder if you’re absolutely happy to talk about your diet and the importance of that.
Joe Vargetto:
Yeah, I think with diet as well, and obviously being on MS, you have different treatments as well. So, I’m on Ocrevus, which is done every six months. Previously, I was on Tysabri, which is every month, the infusions and so on. It does play around with your body as well.
And I think one of the greatest points and of all, eating is very important, but it’s exercise and keeping your mind active and keeping your muscles and nerves and just as much as you can, whether it be on a bike or swimming is probably one of the best. You use your shoulders and in water you have to.
So, it’s really a very sensory experience and there’s no impact with your legs and so on. So, I would suggest, for anyone with MS, if they can swim as much as they can. Cycling is good because obviously there’s no impact, but there’s obviously if a truck comes along, maybe there could be an impact with that. So, you don’t really… Be friendly with them.
But exercise is very, very, very important. Exerting your body trying to create… Because you do, which I’ve found is your muscle mass, you do lose some of your muscle mass, you do get fatigued and sometimes you miss out on exercise. Exercise is extremely important and brain activity continually, whether it be reading a book or questions or something that stimulates excitement for your brain.
Eating is something that I was very privileged and lucky to come from a European family or an Italian family that we didn’t understand what McDonald’s was. Food that you buy from the supermarket, what does that mean? So, from a young kid, fruits and things like that in your backyard, understanding seasons is very, very important because no use buying stuff that’s out of season because it’s going to just be full of pesticides and stabilisers and all these different other things that they put in foods and you don’t want carry them.
And I’m going to say being Italian, I find eating pasta is possibly not so, I don’t know, the gluten element or slows you down or the body just takes energy from the carbohydrates. I think you need a very diverse, not just bread, bread, bread, salami bread, salami bread or pasta, things like that, but a good diverse range of vegetables.
But just done with spinach with a little bit of olive oil and lemon juice and fruits, very, very important. And just have, again, a diet which stimulates all different elements of nutrition. I think it’s very important. And stay away from anything that’s processed or fast food. Go for slow food and unprocessed.
Jeremy Henderson:
Looking back, do you think your MS diagnosis changed your outlook? And if so, how do you think it?
Joe Vargetto:
Yeah. I think when I was first diagnosed, I thought it was a little bit made of titanium and I didn’t believe it. But now, as I said to you before, time is that undefeatable enemy. As time goes on, you do get a little bit slower. But again, sometimes it’s older age, you slow down because of you’re not 20 any longer, you’re not 18 any longer.
Before I used to have hair, believe it or not. Now it’s all gone. So, I never used to wear glasses, now looking at that sign in the distance is a bit bit difficult. So don’t blame yourself for everything in the sense of it’s all because of multiple sclerosis or your disease, but sometimes it’s just that we have to hand the baton to the younger ones. They need to take on a little bit of the heavy lifting and it’s just natural.
But don’t let yourself go and looking at the diagnosis, I think I didn’t want it, but it happened. But just make it in any possible way. Try to put it in your head that life moves on and it happened and it’s time to… You just got to deal with it. That’s how we are as humans, I think.
And there’s no other possible scenario, so we just got to always know giving up is not an answer. There’s always certain methods that you can use differently to get the same outcome. And I think if you have people around you that are supportive and take a really positive approach.
Jeremy Henderson:
With MS, you can have good days and bad days, and so many of the symptoms are invisible. You talked about having good people around you to support you, how do people know when Joe is not having a good day?
Joe Vargetto:
I think it’s not that I’m lazy, sometimes I just want to watch TV.
Jeremy Henderson:
You’re clearly looking at-
Joe Vargetto:
Sometimes I just want to watch TV, or I don’t know. Your body fluctuates. In the morning, sometimes you’re a bit slow and you go, oh, I can’t even bother to put my pants on, let’s say. And then half an hour later, oh yeah, it’s great, can’t wait. And then sometimes it’s a bit of a rollercoaster and you try to put on a happy face or a different face, makeup on, let’s say, and no one can see behind it.
But again, you have good people around you, but it’s the core of yourself that you need to adjust and say, okay, it’s happened, how do we deal with it? There’s a lot of people I know that have kids and sometimes just put their face in your head and try to do it for them.
Jeremy Henderson:
Excellent. Joe, thank you very much.
Joe Vargetto:
Pleasure.
Jeremy Henderson:
Wonderful talking to you.
Joe Vargetto:
My pleasure. Thank you.
Voiceover:
Thanks for listening to the Raw Nerve, the official podcast of MS Australia. To hear more, subscribe to our podcast today at msaustralia.org.au/podcast.
